**Listed below are mostly Craps Pit visitor submitted systems*.**

**Have your system added to the list by e-mailing me at **starchip@live.com

__ Boozer's Delight__ It's a very simple system that anyone can play. If you
want to just sit around and watch the game and secure a place at the table to watch then
this is the system to use. You could also use it if you want to get ridiculously drunk for
virtually free. Now I bet I've got your attention.

Bet $5 on the pass line and $15 on the don't pass line

Once the point is established lay $10 odds on your pass line bet.

At this point you can only win or break even depending on the point.

If the point is 4 or 10 and the shooter makes it, you win 10 dollars.

If the point is 5 or 9 and the shooter makes it, you win 5 dollars.

If the point is 6 or 8 and the shooter makes it, you win $2.

If the shooter 7's out, you lose nothing.

The only time you lose is on the come out roll if a 7, 11 or 12 is thrown in which case you lose 10 dollars on a 7 or 11 and 5 dollars on a 12. However, you win 10 dollars if a 2 or 3 is thrown on the come out roll.

One can probably see that this system doesn't pay big. More like it's designed for the average Joe without the big bank roll. There is probably some other way

to play this system by adding more bets to it, but I don't have time to sit down and figure it out. If nothing else, you can stay at a table and watch the action if you are a beginner trying to pick up the game.

bholko@maxwell.com

Ok, as far as I can tell this is not in fact a winning
system.

Considering it's mathematically impossible to create a winning system,
I'm not overly distressed about it. ;) But here it is just the same. Simulation shows it
to be, um, not terrible. I'd go so far as to call it pretty good. (Appears to lose only
1.1% which must be due to my simulation only running for several million rolls.) My
problem is that I don't know what the expected value of the system is on a progression
basis, so I put that question to the group.

The Dance is a hybrid of the Martingale and Labouchere systems. The
dancing involved is between the pass line and don't pass, which at times can switch
seemingly erratically. Take the basic system strategy and implement it on both the pass
line and the don't pass concurrently, but only place the difference. The system:

Martingale (double) 6 times. (5 is a conservative alternative.) If your
last doubling loses, write down each wager in a train and use that as the basis for the
Labouchere, but use three bets instead of two. Each new wager should be the total of the
First, Second, and Last bet in your train plus an extra 1 unit ($5).

The progression ends when *both* the pass line side *and* the don't
pass side are at 1 or 2 units. For instance, the following scenario:

D D D D D D D D P P P

is not a complete progression. The next bet would be a 7 unit ($35) bet on the don't pass.
To demonstrate the betting, let's look at the above example, completed, and with bet
amounts:

D D
D D D
D D
P P
P D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Pass: 5 10 20 40
80 160 320
340 225 85
5

Don't: 5 5 5
5 5
5 5
5
10 20
40

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bet: 0 5p 15p 35p
75p 155p 315p 335p 215p
65p 35d

Leaving you up $50. The end result is that you win $5, 1 unit, for
every point except the first one. This system holds up extremely well when compared to
either of its constituent systems. It "takes the edge off" both the Martingale
and Labouchere by avoiding their major pitfalls, and harnessing their strengths. Four
six-point losing streaks will destroy any Labouchere but not even be a worry for The
Dance. One ten-point losing streak will spell catastrophe for the Martingale but does not
always beat The Dance.

Of note is the fact that this system is far superior to the
"double D'Alembert" (sp?) system I posted in the thread with
Compureno. I'm
curious to see how it fares, so I'll go dig up those rolls in the next few days to see.

As (I believe) this is an original hybrid, I am not positive on what
the ideal amounts of money to play with are, nor am I sure about the best length of the
Martingale side. My initial knee-jerk reactions are 6 doubles, $500 stop-win, and $1500
stop-loss. This allows you to survive a losing streak of 10, making it superior to the
Martingale, but not much more. My question to the group is:

Using the 500/1500/6 variation, what is the average winning and losing
progression (*not* session), and what percent of the time do they occur? I tried
desperately to come up with the answers and I couldn't, because there are so many series
that can potentially go on forever. I am also curious about the results if the system is
played with no stop-limits at all except for the table maximum on a single bet. But when
that is hit, splitting could conceivably be implemented to keep it going.

Please, math people, can you help me? I can't even brute force the
numbers with a program. :(

- Ellis

I posted a while back describing The Dance, a horrendously complicated
labouchere/martingale combination played on both sides of the line simultaneously.

The hedge variation is a modified take back, beginning the take back
progression at $1 on the second roll. The take back is begun on the first doubling of the
dance. So, the first bet, which is normally 5, is now 0 because you are doing a take back
on the other side. The second bet, instead of 15, is now 6, and so on.

The take back progression to be used as a hedge is:

5,9,16,28,48,80,128,192,256

The premise is that once the take back becomes larger than the dance
bet, and it wins, you reset everything to zero instead of climbing to the nosebleed
betting amounts the dance requires on a streaky table.

If you can actually do this, you are an arithmetic god. I wouldn't be
able to do it with a laptop at the table, and I'm very good at fast arithmetic. - Ellis

It's pretty basic with pass / DP and come /DC
bets, but how I conquer the game is with an intricate switching method of

going from the do to the don't and back again if necessary. You need patience
and discipline.

It is not get rich quick. It is a lot of mental toughness and
discipline.

Do you want to win? or just play? BIG difference!

We always start on the DO side after we see two repeats of
box #'s or three repeats of the same box #.

We begin play with a one unit bet on the pass line followed
by two one unit come bets.

We take single odds on all bets.

If, after the come bets go to #'s, the 6 or 8 are left
uncovered, we place one or both with single unit (or thereabouts) place
bets.

The object is to get a pass line and two come bets with
single odds with the six and eight always covered.

We increase are bets after winning by one unit. Always single
odds.

After we win at our third level on either pass or come, we
reduce only once to a single unit bet and climb from there. The pass line and
come bets work independently of each other.

After a seven out, we switch to the Don't side with a DP bet
and two DC bets all laying single odds. DP bets will increase

one unit per win. after three wins we reduce to first level and go from there.
DC bets will increase only once to second level and remain there. We switch from
DP to pass after shooter rolls his # or a come out seven. We switch from DC to
come after losing two DC bets.

This takes study. It isn't learned overnight. This is just
the tip of the iceberg. If you want more or have any questions, let me know.
This works and I want to correspond with someone who might be interested in
really becoming a student of the game.

Oh, one more thing, no drinking alcohol during play. Not one
drink!

Let me know if you are interested. I love to correspond with
serious players.

Todd

__Do and Don't
for 10x odds Tables__

This is a system that I successfully use.

First of all, you have to find a casino that offers at least 10X free odds. Secondly, before making your initial wager, wait until a come-out roll

**The Betting:**

Initially I will bet $5 on the DP (Don't Pass), and will keep betting $5 on the DP until a point is established. After the point is established I will Lay 5X odds (6X against the numbers 5 and 9) against the point and bet $5 on the DC (Don't Come), and will keep betting $5 on the DC until the bet is established against a number. When the DC bet is established against a number (4,5,6,8,9, or 10) I will also Lay 5X odds (6X against the numbers 5 or 9) against that number. This is it on the Don't betting, just work two numbers.

Here is where the system differs from your ordinary dark side bettor. I will play the don't, working two don't numbers, until a shooter rolls one of the numbers I was on. As soon I have lost money on one of my don't numbers I will immediately jump to right side betting. If the shooter rolls my DC bet I will bet $5 on the Come (leaving the DP bets alone) or if the shooter rolls the point I will bet $5 on the Pass Line (leaving the DC bets alone). Initially I will work three right bet numbers with 2X odds (a Pass Line bet with two Come bets working or three Come bets working, Leaving the DC/DP bets also working). If one of my Come or Pass Line bets wins, I then start working four numbers (a Pass Line bet with three Come bets or four Come bets, Leaving the DC/DP bets also working). Once any combination of my Pass Line and/or Come bets has won three times then I bump my free odds to 5X (only on the next Pass Line and/or Come bets that are rolled). If I win on the Pass Line with a 5X free odds bet then on the next point that is established I bump my free odds bet to 10X. If I win on one of my Come bets with having 5X free odds on it I will bump the next Come number that is established to 10X free odds, with an exception: only go to 10X free odds on a Come bet if the win is considered "off and on". What I mean by this is that if you have four numbers working and a 5X free odds bet is won then on the next Come number that is established then you would only bet 5X free odds; if you have three numbers working and a $5 bet in the Come and one of your Come bets that has a 5X free odds bet is rolled next you would then bet 10X free odds on that number. What this will allow you to do is to catch a shooter who is rolling a specific number over and over.

Once a shooter sevens-out, then you start back as a Don't Player.

As a whole, most of the tables that I have played on run cold to choppy with an occasional hot shooter. This system will take advantage of the cold table and a hot shooter; however, an ultra-choppy table will kill you real quick. That is why I use these money management strategies.

My minimum winning expectations for a session (a session being form the time you buy in to the time you cash in winnings or reach a losing limit) is at least $110(it can be more if you catch a hot shooter).

My maximum losing expectations for a session is $500.

I also have a walk away threshold of loss of $100 that will be explained.

I will initially buy in for $250, if I reach a threshold winning of $110 then when the dice are passed to the next shooter I cash out.

If I lose that $250 then I will buy in for another $250; however, my threshold has changed. My new threshold is now a net loss of $100 (of the initial $250 buy in) I cash out. What this means is that I am on a choppy table and I get a cold streak or hot shooter that brings me nearly even.

If I lose the second $250 buy in ($500 total) I walk away.

I have used the betting system approximately 15 to 20 sessions. I have used the betting system with the money management strategy about 5 sessions. I have about a
%70 win rate.

I have the system and money management strategy built on an autobet file on Wincraps and will e-mail a copy if requested. E-mail to larmo1@netzero.net.

Luck does not exists only situations which can or cannot be exploited,
Larmo

Ok, here's another loser system that came to me, but
the funny thing is that for over an hour I really thought that it would work...LOL

Don't Pass, using a Martingale only to get it established. That's it.
Bango! So you never lose money on the come out roll...or rather, you always establish
enough to cover your previous losses. Figuring there is only an 8/36 chance to need to
martingale you shouldn't have to go more than 3 or 4 doublings to get established. (or a
low-craps win)

Now, since you get every single (progressed) don't bet established, and
you have no odds, all your money will win more than it loses. You'll win more of your 1
unit points than lose, more 2 unit points will win than lose, ad infinitum.

Ok, now I know Stacy figured out why this is no good after reading the
word "Bango", so can anybody else tell me why my simulation showed it as a
loser?

Note: The higher the cutoff the worse it lost, but if you allow only 1
doubling and then revert back to 1 unit, it demonstrates the same results as straight
betting. I thought that was neat.

I figured out conceptually why it wouldn't work before I even wrote the
simulation, and even had predicted the 1 doubling pseudo-successful result. But the
thought process I had to go through to understand it was useful. So I thought I'd let you
system freaks out there (like me) enjoy the puzzle.

- Ellis

This is the most brutal grind system I've ever
conceived. The premise of this is that the gambler's fallacy holds true. The good news is
that it will. The bad news is that it won't hold true until 700,000 decisions after you
lose your bankroll. But here's the system anyway. It's uncharacteristically simple for one
of my systems:

The basic bet is either a pass or a don't pass bet. You never take
odds. This system works on any table minimums and maximums. (The lower the minimum the
better, but you could scale a small bankroll on a $25 minimum table if you absolutely had
to.)

What we need to do is to expand the scope of the event. Don't bet on 1
bet...bet on several in a row as a single unit. Now your "events" are longer and
more predictable. I have found that 5 decisions works very well as your single bet.

Decide on a unit. Anywhere from $1 to $10, and it can be lower than the
table minimum. You need approximately 150 units to win 50. A good unit size would be $2 or
$3. Walk up to the table, cash in, and jot down the results of the first 5 decisions
without betting anything. There are only 3 decisions: (P)ass, (D)on't, and (B)ar (2 or
12). Now use this simple formula to determine your bet:

D*2 - P*2 + B = bet modifier

Your starting point is zero. Calculate the modifier for the first 5
decisions, and multiply that by your unit size. This is your bet. Positive modifier means
bet the pass, negative means bet the don't. If your bet is lower than the table minimum,
bet the minimum on both the pass and the don't, and add your bet accordingly. For
instance, if it's a $2 pass, and a $5 table, bet $7 on the pass and $5 on the don't. Nice
and simple. Bet whatever amount you have on 5 decisions in a row, without deviation. Write
down those 5 decisions. Now redo the formula for these 5 decisions, and apply the modifier
to your previous bet. Once you exceed 5 units and then get back to zero units (or under 5
again), you have a stopping point. If you haven't won enough, keep betting.

Here's a sample from test rolls I did at one point. It assumes a $500
bankroll using a $3 unit. (Equally effective would be $300 bankroll for a $2 unit.)

BET DECISIONS BALANCE
FORMULA MOD
UNIT BET $ BET

----- -------------- ------------
-------------
------- ----------- -------

0 P P D P P
0
2 - 8 + 0
-6 -6
$18 Don't

18d D B D P D +36
6 - 2 + 1
+5 -1
$3 Don't*

3d P P P D P
+27
2 - 8 + 0
-6 -7
$21 Don't

21d P D P P P
-36
2 - 8 + 0
-6 -13
$39 Don't

39d D D P P D
+3
6 - 4 + 0 +2
-11
$33 Don't

33d D P P P P -96
2 - 8 + 0
-6 -17
$51 Don't

51d P P P D B -198
2 - 6 + 1
-3 -20
$60 Don't

60d D P P D D -138
6 - 4 + 0
+2 -18
$54 Don't

54d P D P D P -192
4 - 6 + 0 -2
-20
$60 Don't

60d D D P D P -132
6 - 4 + 0
+2 -18
$54 Don't

54d D D P P P -186
4 - 6 + 0 -2
-20
$60 Don't

60d D B D D P -66
6 - 2 + 1 +5
-15
$45 Don't

45d P P D P D -111
4 - 6 + 0 -2
-17
$51 Don't

51d D D D P B
-9
6 - 2 + 1 +5
-12
$36 Don't

36d D D D B D +135
8 - 0 + 1
+9 -3
Bail

*Placed as a $5 pass and an $8 don't

It takes forever, is painful to watch, and you need the gambler's
fallacy to hold true in the short term. Basically, you need STAN the Craps Bunny to smile
on you for this to work. But if you keep getting perfect or near-perfect distribution,
this will win you money.

- Ellis

This system plays flat bets on the Pass Line and
Don't Pass.

A running count is kept as follows:

A pass counts as +1.

A miss counts as -1 (unless it was due to bar 12 - then it counts
as (0).

When the count reaches +3 or -3 betting begins on the side that
is behind.

In other words, if +3 then Don't Pass is bet, if -3 then Pass
Line is bet.

Betting then continues until the count returns to zero.

Unknown contributor.

__Inside hedge system__

$225 is the minimum bankroll. You begin this system just
before a come out roll. You put down $75 somewhere in front of your friendly
base dealer and request;"$51 no 4(or 10, your choice) and $12 each place 6
and 8. If the dealer asks if the 6 and 8 work, tell him no.

When 7 rolls on the come out, the 6 and 8 are safe but the
lay bet against the 4(or 10) wins $25 and you must pay a dollar to keep the bet
up. Once a point is established, the place bets win $14 every time they hit. If
you have made a profit on the place bets, you now have the option of taking down
the lay bet against the 4(or 10) and playing a progression on the 6 and 8's or

sticking it out until 7 out.

A killer 7 at this point loses your $12 each 6 and 8 (a loss
of $24) but if the lay is still there, it wins $24 ($25 minus $1 for the vig)
making it a push.

If the 4(or 10, whichever you lay) rolls, you of course lose
that bet. You can of course bet it again to recoup your loss, only you would
have to win double. You can always bet double one time and then regress. That
would be $150 in action. $102 no 4(or 10) and $24 each place 6 and 8. If you hit
7 on the come out or two hits on your place bet, you can go back to the $75

action.

When 6,7 and 8 are rolling a lot, this system can easily
profit. After two stings on the lay bet, it's probably best to make a change.

jamoke11@hotmail.com

**Place bet regressive hedge**

This is
a system that a friend of mine thought up; I have never actually never used it, but I have
seen him use to some degree of success.

This method will work on a $10 or lower minimum bet.

Buy in for about $300. Leave when at least $100
up or the $300 is gone.

- On the come out roll make a Don't Pass (DP) for $10.
- After a point is established, then lay 2X odds ($40 for 4 or 10, $30 for 5 or 9, and $24 for 6 or 8).
- Place the remaining numbers across the board for $52 or $54, depending upon what the point is($10 and $12 bets respectively).
- Wait until one place bet is won then start removing the DP lay odds by $10 increments as each consecutive place bet is won (if the point is 4 or 10, then remove $20 after each place win; if the point is 5 or 9, then remove $15 after each place win; if the point is 6 or 8 remove $12 after each place win).
- When the lay odds are removed, then remove the DP bet on the next place win.

The drawbacks of this system are:

- Rollers that roll 7 and out.
- Rollers that roll their point back to back (honeymooners).

If you want to be more conservative then take
"no action" if a 6 or 8 is rolled on the come out roll and wait for a more
favorable point to arrive.

Another conservative method is to remove all bets after 3 wins on place
numbers.

To be more aggressive you could press the place bets after they are
won; however, I would not start pressing until the DP bets are removed and I would
alternate the pressing (win once, rake, win again on that same exact place bet, then
press) at some point you will have to stop pressing and start raking in winnings.

LOL, larmo

You start with 31 units. In this example
we'll use $1 units. You can bet right or wrong. You would bet the units in the
following manner: $1, $1, $1, $2, $2, $4, $4, $8, $8. This is a total of 31
units. When playing this system the most important item is making the double
bet, you must put two win bets back to back and then start all over again from
the first sequence.

Example: You lose the first two $1 bets, then win the third
$1 bet, you must double the bet and bet the $2 and win, this will put you ahead
$1.

Suppose you lose five bets in a row, $1, $1, $1, $2, $2. Your
next bet will be $4, if you win this $4 bet, you would now double up your next
bet and that would be $8. If you win the $8 bet you now have $16, you have
invested $11 and now you are ahead by $5.

Another example: You lose seven bets in a row, your next bet
should be $8. If you win, the next bet should be $16 as this is your double up
bet.

If you win this bet you will receive $32 and that is a $9
profit. If you should have lost this $16 bet then you would progress to the last
$8 bet and you double this bet up after a win.

if this bet was lost then start all over again with another
31 unit stake or call it a day.

You should lock up all your wins and put them in the back
rack. Never bet more than 31 units.